Monday, January 03, 2005

So, I followed Stephen C. Carlson's advice and checked out TextKit. I was planning on doing that anyway, but knowing that whatever they had was OK was a good thing and it prompted me to do it sooner rather than later.

I'm poking through the first bits of Latin for Beginners by Benjamin L. D'Ooge, at least for now.

I'm realizing is that there are a lot of rules having to do with pronunciation. Penults, antepenults, dipthongs, short vowels, long vowels, vowel 'quantity' and syllable 'quantity', etc. Then I realized: Greek has a lot of this same stuff, and I don't consciously think of it when I'm reading Greek ... I just read it. So that's encouraging.

One disadvantage is that I don't get to actually hear anyone pronounce Latin. So I poked around the internet a bit. I found GreekLatinAudio.com, which has some MP3 files of various books of the NT, read from the Greek NT and the Vulgate NT. But the volume was very low and almost inaudible, and the enunciation didn't seem to be that great (but the sound was pretty faint ... ). But it's better than nothin'. Maybe I'll burn some tracks on a CD so I can crank it on my stereo. Then the neighbors will really think I'm weird.

Question: Are there pronunciation debates amongst Latinists similar to the pronunciation debates one finds regarding NT Greek? (e.g. Erasmian vs. Modern vs. ... )

Update: Regarding the Latin at GreekLatinAudio.com, Stephen C. Carlson (Hypotyposeis) writes in the comments:

I just listened to the first part of Mark 1 at GreekLatinAudio.com. It does not conform to any of the three systems I outlined above, and the speaker's knowledge of Spanish (as a second language?) is constantly interfering with his pronunciation. I don't recommend this AT ALL.

He also provided a helpful synopsis of Latin pronunciation — more than I'd anticipated. Thanks, Stephen, for the helpful comments.

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Post Author: Rico
Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:25:04 AM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00) 

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Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:13:31 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Newsflash: The neighbors *already* think you're weird. (I only live 20 miles away ... that qualifies as a neighbor, right?)
Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:41:01 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Rick,

There actually is a pronunciation debate for Latin as well, somewhat analogous to classical vs. modern Greek, and there are three systems of pronuciation of Latin currently in use in the U.S.:

1. CLASSICAL. The classical pronounciation is a re-creation of how Latin was more-or-less spoken among educated people in the late Republic (e.g. Cicero). It is by far the most dominant among scholars, even of those not in the classics, and it is the one you should know. The parts most surprising to an American would be that all C's and G's are hard (thus, CICERO sounds like "kee-ke-ro"), V is like "w", the vowels have their continental values (as in Italian or Spanish), while AE is like the 'ai' in "aisle" and OE like the 'oi' in "oil."

2. ECCLESIASTICAL or Italiate. Basically, Latin pronounced as if it was Italian. C and G are soft (ch and j, respectively) before E and I, V is like "v", AE and OE like "ay." CICERO sounds like "chee-che-ro". This system reflects the sound changes starting from the second and third centuries and of the three this most resembles the historical pronunciation of Christians writing in Latin. It is still heard when Latin is spoken in Roman Catholic churches and in Mel Gibson's movie.

3. ANGLO-NORMAN. This is the pronunciation of Latin still used by American lawyers in their technical terms ("de novo," "res ipsa loquitur," "res judicata"). It was affected by the Great Vowel Shift in English and is basically pronounced as if it was English. C and G are soft (as s and j, respectively) before E and I, V is like "v", AE and OE like "ee." CICERO sounds like "sih-se-ro". This style of Latin pronunciation is no longer taught in law schools, and there now is a tendency for the classical pronounciation (which is being taught in High School classes) to take over, except for a very small set of very popular terms.

Personally, I almost never have any opportunity for pronouncing it to someone else, so the issue may be moot, but I prefer Classical for classical writers and Ecclesiastical for Christian writers. If you're just starting out and not planning to use Latin in Roman Catholic institutional settings, I would strongly recommend learning and using the Classical pronunication system.
Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:52:35 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
Two more points:

1. It should be "Italianate" not "Italiate" above.

2. I just listened to the first part of Mark 1 at GreekLatinAudio.com. It does not conform to any of the three systems I outlined above, and the speaker's knowledge of Spanish (as a second language?) is constantly interfering with his pronunciation. I don't recommend this AT ALL.
Friday, January 07, 2005 9:15:53 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
This issue is a highlighted by the ubiquity of the net. When I read Hebrew for my class they know no better and accept my pronunciation scheme; when I read at a scholarly conference others tollerantly say to themselves "he learned his reading from ..." and smile. But when I read for the web (as in the Amos commentary http://www.bible.gen.nz/frametext.htm, or the Hebrew Vocabularies Project) all the world can hear and complain!

So, the 64 dollar question, will this lead to standardization, or will every scheme have its pages?
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